Re: Smirky's and Keonig's Game design thread (TOP SECRET)

[Koenig]

May I suggest a curiosity kills the cat approach? IE sam's shown actions are generally either motivated by curiosity or good intentions, but typically back fire in some small way or another. Subsequently when the Captain eventually finds him and acts as a mentor who can guide him without the backfiring's mentioned before, it would explain another level of Sam's trust for him.

On that note: Could the we tinker with the idea that the Captain and his crew are foreigners rather than island locals? It seems like this would give the Captain both a greater sense of power and influence while providing some way for Sam to show of his use to the Captain by guiding him around the island. Essentially the Captain would have knowledge and tech that islanders don't have, and the islanders would have their own information and resources that Captain does not have. Sam could act as a bridge between the two and ultimately help them leave the island. Note that this is just an idea, but it seems like a better way to introduce the Captain and Sam both to each other and the player.

[smirkytrick]

May I suggest a curiosity kills the cat approach? IE sam's shown actions are generally either motivated by curiosity or good intentions, but typically back fire in some small way or another. Subsequently when the Captain eventually finds him and acts as a mentor who can guide him without the backfiring's mentioned before, it would explain another level of Sam's trust for him.

Hmmm... That could work out. This could also help out with the tutorial section as well.

On that note: Could the we tinker with the idea that the Captain and his crew are foreigners rather than island locals? It seems like this would give the Captain both a greater sense of power and influence while providing some way for Sam to show of his use to the Captain by guiding him around the island. Essentially the Captain would have knowledge and tech that islanders don't have, and the islanders would have their own information and resources that Captain does not have. Sam could act as a bridge between the two and ultimately help them leave the island. Note that this is just an idea, but it seems like a better way to introduce the Captain and Sam both to each other and the player.

Hmmm... Well, there's one flaw with that, If the captain and his crew were foreigners then they probably wouldn't be on the island at all because because of the xenophobia and laws.
Also, it's not really the knowledge that sets the captain apart for the other locals, it's his curiosity and determination that does that makes him stand out.

[Koenig]

Though in counter, that could be a reason why they are trying to get off the island. (IE, they were forced to land there by storm or other unfortunate event) and are trying to get out before their goose's are cooked.

On the flipside, if the Captain had grown up on the island he would probably had the curiosity beaten out of him long before, or rather not provided with the tools to leave. I just find it hard to believe that he would have gathered all the skills and resources needed to sail a ship into the open sea along with a crew who would gladly follow him.

A third option that might make more sense is if the Captain and much of his crew were stranded on the island many years before. Being ostracized and exiled to one strip of the island by the locals,  The Captain and his crew would still retain a level of mystery about them and a taboo from the villagers. And if I have learned anything about curiosity, it is that Taboo + Curiosity = Rule breaking.

[smirkytrick]

Though in counter, that could be a reason why they are trying to get off the island. (IE, they were forced to land there by storm or other unfortunate event) and are trying to get out before their goose's are cooked.

Well, it's just that whenever I think of a xenophobic island, I think of an island that's completely surrounded by a giant wall with guards. So, I can't really see them accidentally landing on the island. Also, if they were trying to avoid trouble, then why would he go directly towards the king and queen?

On the flipside, if the Captain had grown up on the island he would probably had the curiosity beaten out of him long before, or rather not provided with the tools to leave. I just find it hard to believe that he would have gathered all the skills and resources needed to sail a ship into the open sea along with a crew who would gladly follow him.

The way I see it, the captain would have been a kid whenever they were putting up the giant wall surrounding the island. He didn't really think about going out and explore until the walls were up. And over the years, he would save his money and resources to build a ship, learned useful skills, and befriend some people who would eventually be a part of his crew. I don't really see people beating the curiosity out of him, more likely they would just discourage him by calling him a fool for wanting to go out of the safe zone and tell him that he'll get himself killed.

*This does give me an idea though. A new idea for a mission, and a personality of one of the crew members that would survive the explosion, and something to add to the story.

A third option that might make more sense is if the Captain and much of his crew were stranded on the island many years before. Being ostracized and exiled to one strip of the island by the locals,  The Captain and his crew would still retain a level of mystery about them and a taboo from the villagers. And if I have learned anything about curiosity, it is that Taboo + Curiosity = Rule breaking.

That would make a great training idea, the captain puts Sam on a island and leaves him stranded. He tells Sam about how he and his friends were stranded on that very island. This could be a good way to introduce the crafting mechanics.
*BTW the island is within the walls
I can't really see that Taboo part fitting in... Maybe they could have a secret that they don't want anyone to know or something... Other than that I can't see that Taboo thing fitting in.

[Koenig]

The fact the island is walled of makes a lot more sense of things, but I still find it hard to believe that as a member of the island he would be able to convince the King and/or Queen to forgo their xenophobic ways. The only way I see the Captain doing this as a member of the island is if he is an "Important" person who has some level of influence with the leaders.

While we are still on the topic of the tutorial /stating story; I would like to point out that we need to condense it as much as possible. The longer we hold the player on the island explaining things, the more likely the player may get bored. Even if the game picks up later, many players will have given up before then.

[smirkytrick]

The fact the island is walled of makes a lot more sense of things, but I still find it hard to believe that as a member of the island he would be able to convince the King and/or Queen to forgo their xenophobic ways. The only way I see the Captain doing this as a member of the island is if he is an "Important" person who has some level of influence with the leaders.

Like I said he's a charmer. That and we could say that the king and queen are paranoid about the outside world and the Captain uses this opportunity to convince them he could scout or explore the world.

While we are still on the topic of the tutorial /stating story; I would like to point out that we need to condense it as much as possible. The longer we hold the player on the island explaining things, the more likely the player may get bored. Even if the game picks up later, many players will have given up before then.

In that case, we better make the island a decent size, beautiful, and as fun as possible to balance out the tutorials and enjoyment.

Also since we are talking about the island, what do you think we should name the island?

[Koenig]

I guess I am just having trouble imagining the Captain. Judging from the fact he helps and teaches Sam I get the impression that he is a man of integrity; but in my mind integrity and being a charmer mix about as well as oil and water. Can you describe the Captains personality some? As in his tendencies and how he is likely to react?

As for the island I recommend making it as small and condensed as possible unless you intend to have the player return and find access more parts of the island later on. In which case I still recommend making the tutorial section small as to keep it short and concise.

For the time being I don't think we need to develop a permanent name; but for the sake communication we could call the starting island something along the lines of "Alphapoint"

[smirkytrick]

I guess I am just having trouble imagining the Captain. Judging from the fact he helps and teaches Sam I get the impression that he is a man of integrity; but in my mind integrity and being a charmer mix about as well as oil and water. Can you describe the Captains personality some? As in his tendencies and how he is likely to react?

The captain is an eccentric man that knows what cards to play. Whenever he needs something done he does whatever it takes to get it done. He's also a natural born leader, seeing how he got his persuaded his life long friends into joining his crew. I guess you can also say that he's also a dreamer at times, but he's always full of determination.
*also I think we should give him a name whatya think?

As for the island I recommend making it as small and condensed as possible unless you intend to have the player return and find access more parts of the island later on. In which case I still recommend making the tutorial section small as to keep it short and concise.

I'm actually not sure how big the island should be. I do intend on having the player to return to the island for a mission, and the player will be able to return by presenting the the "royal permission" to the guards at the gate.
*oh yeah I forgot about the royal permission, it's a slip of paper that was signed by the king and queen to grant the player permission to enter and leave the island.
Before we even begin with the tutorial level we need to settle on the game's mechanics first, we may have to make a rough draft of the island first and change it depending on what mechanics we settle on for the game. So far, we agree that there is a small island somewhere that the captain was stranded on. And that there's a huge wall surrounding the island. And if there's a king and queen then there's gotta be a castle. That's what we got so far.

For the time being I don't think we need to develop a permanent name; but for the sake communication we could call the starting island something along the lines of "Alphapoint"

Ooooooh! someone is being fancy with the names Lol, just messing with ya.
Ok, for now the island is Alphapoint.

[Koenig]

The captain is an eccentric man that knows what cards to play. Whenever he needs something done he does whatever it takes to get it done. He's also a natural born leader, seeing how he got his persuaded his life long friends into joining his crew. I guess you can also say that he's also a dreamer at times, but he's always full of determination.
*also I think we should give him a name whatya think?

Captain Mazer it is.

I'm actually not sure how big the island should be. I do intend on having the player to return to the island for a mission, and the player will be able to return by presenting the the "royal permission" to the guards at the gate.
*oh yeah I forgot about the royal permission, it's a slip of paper that was signed by the king and queen to grant the player permission to enter and leave the island.
Before we even begin with the tutorial level we need to settle on the game's mechanics first, we may have to make a rough draft of the island first and change it depending on what mechanics we settle on for the game. So far, we agree that there is a small island somewhere that the captain was stranded on. And that there's a huge wall surrounding the island. And if there's a king and queen then there's gotta be a castle. That's what we got so far

I honestly think a tool driven plat-former would be the best gameplay mechanics to build on. Think Banjoo Kazooie/DK64 minus the needless collect-athon'ing (Still there, but optional)

Ooooooh! someone is being fancy with the names Lol, just messing with ya.
Ok, for now the island is Alphapoint.

When in doubt, throw a dash of Latin in.

One suggestion I have is that we base part of the game on discovering new places "For" the island. essentially proving their past phobia's wrong and gradually making them more welcoming to the outside world via the gifts and knowledge you bring back to them. This would give a little bit more purpose for finding things yourself rather than just taking the word of NPC's for it.

[smirkytrick]

Captain Mazer it is.

LOL, I dunno about that. I kind of thought the captain would be one of the people who die in the explosion, I think it would make a big impact on the story.

I honestly think a tool driven plat-former would be the best gameplay mechanics to build on. Think Banjoo Kazooie/DK64 minus the needless collect-athon'ing (Still there, but optional)

That sounds about right.

When in doubt, throw a dash of Latin in.

One suggestion I have is that we base part of the game on discovering new places "For" the island. essentially proving their past phobia's wrong and gradually making them more welcoming to the outside world via the gifts and knowledge you bring back to them.  This would give a little bit more purpose for finding things yourself rather than just taking the word of NPC's for it.

YES! And whenever you give them enough information about the world they will tear down that wall. That wall will be like the ender dragon in minecraft, destroying it will be the only way to technically beat the game.

[Koenig]

Rather than having the captain flat out die, why not make it so that his status is unknown? MIA if you will. Other story's could hint at him still being alive, and perhaps eventually saving/reuniting with him. Maybe we could develop stories or back stories where the Captain has influenced other characters before going MIA once again.

That said, if he is alive, judging by the description you gave me I would half expect to find him lounging about on a tropical beach somewhere asking the player what took so long...


Anyways, back to the island. Destroying the wall might be bit much, but opening the gates wide would be an interesting aspect. It would be cool to see the people who the Island allows in out gradually increase as the games goes on, eventually culminating in the island becoming a trade port full NPC's you have met across the disc.

[Koenig]

Also: My vote still goes for Captain Mazer!

[smirkytrick]

Rather than having the captain flat out die, why not make it so that his status is unknown? MIA if you will. Other story's could hint at him still being alive, and perhaps eventually saving/reuniting with him. Maybe we could develop stories or back stories where the Captain has influenced other characters before going MIA once again.

Hmmm... Ok then, I won't kill him off... Perhaps I'll have him be either part of a mission or have him be mysterious and leave clues behind. Well work it out.

That said, if he is alive, judging by the description you gave me I would half expect to find him lounging about on a tropical beach somewhere asking the player what took so long...

Lol, that reminds me of the Shawshank Redemption. I like it!

Anyways, back to the island. Destroying the wall might be bit much, but opening the gates wide would be an interesting aspect. It would be cool to see the people who the Island allows in out gradually increase as the games goes on, eventually culminating in the island becoming a trade port full NPC's you have met across the disc.

Hmmm... That does sound promising.

Also: My vote still goes for Captain Mazer!

Ok then, Capt. L. Mazer it is.

Here's another idea I had. Ever played Shining Force? I think we should put a HQ base in Alphapoint, and if they have the right resources the player could build another HQ base in a village that they discover.
The HQ bases will serve as a place where you're recruited crew members will hangout while you and other members are on the ship. What ya think?

[Koenig]

Ever played Shining Force?

Nope.

I think we should put a HQ base in Alphapoint, and if they have the right resources the player could build another HQ base in a village that they discover.
The HQ bases will serve as a place where you're recruited crew members will hangout while you and other members are on the ship. What ya think?

While I do like the idea of an HQ, I don't think it should be bound to Alphapoint as any port should be able to provide the same services. That said, I do like the idea of upgrading Alpha-point and setting up your own ports/HQ's elsewhere in the world aside from the pre-rendered variations.

[smirkytrick]

Ever played Shining Force?

Nope.

Oh... well Shining Force is this strategy RPG game. You can have up to, I think 8 or 9, party members and you can still get more people, but they can't be in your party. That's where the HQ would come into play, that way, your extra party members can just hang out at HQ waiting for you to switch them out.

I think we should put a HQ base in Alphapoint, and if they have the right resources the player could build another HQ base in a village that they discover.
The HQ bases will serve as a place where you're recruited crew members will hangout while you and other members are on the ship. What ya think?

While I do like the idea of an HQ, I don't think it should be bound to Alphapoint as any port should be able to provide the same services. That said, I do like the idea of upgrading Alpha-point and setting up your own ports/HQ's elsewhere in the world aside from the pre-rendered variations.

Hmmm. Ok I see what you mean. How about you have your ship be the HQ, and upgrading your ship will allow to recruit even more crew members.

[Koenig]

That makes more sense, but to be sure ill paraphase.

Your ship is the HQ and your upgrades to the ship determine how many people you can have as your crew, but ports will still act like the shops and taverns of a typically RPG.

Does that sound about right?

[smirkytrick]

That makes more sense, but to be sure ill paraphase.

Your ship is the HQ and your upgrades to the ship determine how many people you can have as your crew, but ports will still act like the shops and taverns of a typically RPG.

Does that sound about right?

Yup, that sounds about right.

[Koenig]

I have been reviewing our content so far for any other things and I do have a few concerns and suggestions.

One of my concerns is about the random map generator. Initially I was working on the assumption that we would only have land and sea planes to work with, however by adding submersables to gameplay we will also have to develop a thrird plane the occupies the same memory space of the sea tile, and possibly addition altitude so that the subs are navigating under water mountain ranges the same way an airship would with the floating islands.

I can see how it would be possible to integrate into the generator, but it something we should give careful attention.

Another ironic suggestion/analogy for the story mechanics is my joke statement about the MMO aspect of the game. While this will be a single player game, the free roaming style and selection of contained stories to take part in is very similar to an MMO design.
Granted that is (In my opinion) one of the best traits of an MMO, but I thought it was an irony that would be worth pointing out.

Another question I have is how ships are aquired. I know we will be able to either build or buy ships, but will their be any way to commandeer ships from NPC's? Granted this is an aspect of Sid Meier's Pirates talking over my subconscious, but I always enjoyed hunting down and taking a flag ship as my own...Allways hunting for that elusive ship o line. I digress, this does not have to be a standard aspect and can be limited to specific stories events.

[smirkytrick]

I have been reviewing our content so far for any other things and I  do have a few concerns and suggestions.

One of my concerns is about the random map generator. Initially I was working on the assumption that we would only have land and sea planes to work with, however by adding submersables to gameplay we will also have to develop a third plane the occupies the same memory space of the sea tile, and possibly addition altitude so that the subs are navigating under water mountain ranges the same way an airship would with the floating islands.

The way I see it, we are gonna have to make the disc world like a 3 layer cake. Sky islands and clouds, land and mountains, and ocean depth.

I can see how it would be possible to integrate into the generator, but it something we should give careful attention.

I been thinking about the generator as well. We can break new grounds if we can make it work, but then again, there are the factors that could go wrong. i.e. there might a few jagged areas, villages might be submerged in the land. You're  right we should definitely be careful with it, a whole bunch could go wrong but it might be worth the risk. If all else fails, We may have to resort to ditching the map and landscape generator and have a generator the shuffles the villages and countries around. That is if the generator doesn't work out.

Another ironic suggestion/analogy for the story mechanics is my joke statement about the MMO aspect of the game. While this will be a single player game, the free roaming style and selection of contained stories to take part in is very similar to an MMO design.
Granted that is (In my opinion) one of the best traits of an MMO, but I thought it was an irony that would be worth pointing out.

Huh... Now that I think about it, the free roaming and multiple stories do kinda remind me of Runescape a bit. LOL it is ironic.

Another question I have is how ships are aquired. I know we will be able to either build or buy ships, but will their be any way to commandeer ships from NPC's? Granted this is an aspect of Sid Meier's Pirates talking over my subconscious, but I always enjoyed hunting down and taking a flag ship as my own...Allways hunting for that elusive ship o line. I digress, this does not have to be a standard aspect and can be limited to specific stories events.

Yes you can commandeer other ships. This way you can raid for treasure, sell the ships for alot of money, and even break them down to upgrade you own ships. To commandeer, would have to actually involve not only strategic ship maneuvers, but combat as well. Ever played Sly Cooper 3? They actually have a pirate level and they have these pirate battles where you can actually control your own pirate ship in combat and you could jump onto the enemies ship to fight them. This level is a great example of what I kinda have in mind, but I think we could improve the mechanic a bit.

Also, I worked on the concept some. I think I might be on the right track.

[Koenig]

The way I see it, we are gonna have to make the disc world like a 3 layer cake. Sky islands and clouds, land and mountains, and ocean depth.

I was thinking the same thing.

I been thinking about the generator as well. We can break new grounds if we can make it work, but then again, there are the factors that could go wrong. i.e. there might a few jagged areas, villages might be submerged in the land. You're right we should definitely be careful with it, a whole bunch could go wrong but it might be worth the risk. If all else fails, We may have to resort to ditching the map and landscape generator and have a generator the shuffles the villages and countries around. That is if the generator doesn't work out.

From an amateur point of view, it might be more cost, time, and effort effective to go with the latter. That said I do think would could implement a tile generator in which the islands are built on. The closest thing I can compare it to is civ V and its hexagonal terrain, but with more tiles being used to piece together something.

Huh... Now that I think about it, the free roaming and multiple stories do kinda remind me of Runescape a bit. LOL it is ironic.

Whats even more ironic is that Runescape was EXACTLY what I had in mind when I mentioned it.

Ever played Sly Cooper 3?

Nope.

Yes you can commandeer other ships. This way you can raid for treasure, sell the ships for alot of money, and even break them down to upgrade you own ships. To commandeer, would have to actually involve not only strategic ship maneuvers, but combat as well."..." They actually have a pirate level and they have these pirate battles where you can actually control your own pirate ship in combat and you could jump onto the enemies ship to fight them. This level is a great example of what I kinda have in mind, but I think we could improve the mechanic a bit.

Could you post a video of this level? So far the only thing I can really compare it to is Sid Meiers Pirates (Again)

Also, I worked on the concept some. I think I might be on the right track.

He is looking much better, though the side view and ear still have some unsettling quality about them.

[smirkytrick]

From an amateur point of view, it might be more cost, time, and effort effective to go with the latter. That said I do think would could implement a tile generator in which the islands are built on. The closest thing I can compare it to is civ V and its hexagonal terrain, but with more tiles being used to piece together something.

So, you're saying that the lands will be made of octagons? Can you show me a pic of an example?

Could you post a video of this level? So far the only thing I can really compare it to is Sid Meiers Pirates (Again)

*Skip to 6:17

Fun fact: this level is actually what started to give the idea of the game in the first place.

He is looking much better, though the side view and ear still have some unsettling quality about them.

What exactly about the ears? The shape? The proportions?

[Koenig]

So, you're saying that the lands will be made of octagons? Can you show me a pic of an example?

I am having trouble finding a good 3D picture to demonstrate this, but the strategic view is easier to see the difference.

Essentially the tiles would each have their own propperty (Sea, Deep Sea, Beach, Land, Hill, Mountain, Volcano, etc) However instead of acting as the entire segment of land, the tiles would combine to form a larger more randomized tile. A bit of graphical polish could smooth out the edges and plays would then be free to roam them.

*Watches Video*
Looks promissing. With a bit of reffinment and minor modification would could get it to work quiet well. That said, One such modification I think would be good is the implementation of a Ship-Health system.

What exactly about the ears? The shape? The proportions?

All of the above? There is just something unsettling about his side view that seems like its from the uncanny valley.

[smirkytrick]

So, you're saying that the lands will be made of octagons? Can you show me a pic of an example?

I am having trouble finding a good 3D picture to demonstrate this, but the strategic view is easier to see the difference.

Essentially the tiles would each have their own propperty (Sea, Deep Sea, Beach, Land, Hill, Mountain, Volcano, etc) However instead of acting as the entire segment of land, the tiles would combine to form a larger more randomized tile. A bit of graphical polish could smooth out the edges and plays would then be free to roam them.

Ok so the tiles will merge with each other to shape the land and stuff. This could work. It sounds effective.

*Watches Video*
Looks promissing. With a bit of reffinment and minor modification would could get it to work quiet well. That said, One such modification I think would be good is the implementation of a Ship-Health system.

one thing though. In our game, when you take control of the ship, I don't think we should have the camera go to a zoomed out overhead shot like in the video. I think a GTA style vehicle shot from behind would be more appropriate.

What exactly about the ears? The shape? The proportions?

All of the above? There is just something unsettling about his side view that seems like its from the uncanny valley.

*looks up uncanny valley
Well, now I have unpleasant images in my head.
I work on the ears some, but I still don't see anything else unsettling about it. I guess i could rework the ear's shape as well. Could it be the mouth from Row 2 that is giving you the creeps?
have another look.

[Koenig]

one thing though. In our game, when you take control of the ship, I don't think we should have the camera go to a zoomed out overhead shot like in the video. I think a GTA style vehicle shot from behind would be more appropriate.

Probably, but we may have to adjust a few things depending on the ship and its class.

*looks up uncanny valley
Well, now I have unpleasant images in my head.

Lol.

I work on the ears some, but I still don't see anything else unsettling about it. I guess i could rework the ear's shape as well. Could it be the mouth from Row 2 that is giving you the creeps?
have another look.

The mouth and the ears are both seem to be factoring into the uncanny valley effect.

[Koenig]

Question: Will this game have "Dungeons"? I know it may not exactly fit the exploration feel, but it seems like a given aspect of the game in order to give a real meaning to the on land portions of gameplay.

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